Starstream Think Tank

[ShadowHounder]

If they were comparing me to the WOW orcs, I take that because I actually like the horde and there orcs are awesome.

They're the only orcs I care about lol... seeing as they are misunderstood refugees who are dealing with the world's perception of their vocal (and violent) minority. Basically they are middle eastern people before the war on terrorism happened (iirc, warcraft 2 happened in the mid 1990s).

 

[DarkGemini24601]

Yeah I gotta agree with Dahl on this one, orcs are not a stand-in for people of African descent in any setting I can think of. Tolkiens' orcs are based of this idea of a savage but don't have any cultural markers to represent any one group - they don't really have much of a culture at all aside from some basic survival of the fittest stuff. Which makes sense, considering they were manufactured as a weapon.

WoW orcs are the other popular one to come to mind as Shadow pointed out. And they're aliens who develop through a myraid of cultural phases that would be silly to try to nail down to one real world culture. You could make a better arguement that Trolls are, but they mostly represent cultural perceptions of voodoo and shamanism - and in a rather positive light I might add, based trolls.

Cultures and ideas about cultures are useful tools for inspiring fictional cultures; they should never be assumed as allusion to real-world societies and people unless other evidence exists. Your local literature student would like to point out that you need more evidence than that. As a writer I'd hope that if I created an evil warmongering species to fuel part of the story's conflict, people wouldn't automatically assume I'm demonizing real world races by some imagined extension or am suggesting that people in real life are born evil by some facet of their makeup.

 

[Dahlexpert]

Yeah I gotta agree with Dahl on this one, orcs are not a stand-in for people of African descent in any setting I can think of. Tolkiens' orcs are based of this idea of a savage but don't have any cultural markers to represent any one group - they don't really have much of a culture at all aside from some basic survival of the fittest stuff. Which makes sense, considering they were manufactured as a weapon.

WoW orcs are the other popular one to come to mind as Shadow pointed out. And they're aliens who develop through a myraid of cultural phases that would be silly to try to nail down to one real world culture. You could make a better arguement that Trolls are, but they mostly represent cultural perceptions of voodoo and shamanism - and in a rather positive light I might add, based trolls.

Cultures and ideas about cultures are useful tools for inspiring fictional cultures; they should never be assumed as allusion to real-world societies and people unless other evidence exists. Your local literature student would like to point out that you need more evidence than that. As a writer I'd hope that if I created an evil warmongering species to fuel part of the story's conflict, people wouldn't automatically assume I'm demonizing real world races by some imagined extension or am suggesting that people in real life are born evil by some facet of their makeup.

Thank you Dark for saying this and I couldn’t agree more.

 

[ShadowHounder]

Yeah I gotta agree with Dahl on this one, orcs are not a stand-in for people of African descent in any setting I can think of. Tolkiens' orcs are based of this idea of a savage but don't have any cultural markers to represent any one group - they don't really have much of a culture at all aside from some basic survival of the fittest stuff. Which makes sense, considering they were manufactured as a weapon.

WoW orcs are the other popular one to come to mind as Shadow pointed out. And they're aliens who develop through a myraid of cultural phases that would be silly to try to nail down to one real world culture. You could make a better arguement that Trolls are, but they mostly represent cultural perceptions of voodoo and shamanism - and in a rather positive light I might add, based trolls.

Cultures and ideas about cultures are useful tools for inspiring fictional cultures; they should never be assumed as allusion to real-world societies and people unless other evidence exists. Your local literature student would like to point out that you need more evidence than that. As a writer I'd hope that if I created an evil warmongering species to fuel part of the story's conflict, people wouldn't automatically assume I'm demonizing real world races by some imagined extension or am suggesting that people in real life are born evil by some facet of their makeup.

Evil is created, not born

 

[Dahlexpert]

Also if this made any of you uncomfortable I’m sorry, it’s just things like this get on my nerves.

 

[Frostlich1228 (Alt)]

They're the only orcs I care about lol... seeing as they are misunderstood refugees who are dealing with the world's perception of their vocal (and violent) minority. Basically they are middle eastern people before the war on terrorism happened (iirc, warcraft 2 happened in the mid 1990s).

Yeah. That's the problem. It's rare to see nuanced Orcs. DnD Orcs are basically just all one note stereotypes. I think that's what people have a problem with. They are also literally a marginalized minority in the world of DnD, they are forced to live far away from Humans because of their reputation, which would be fine storytelling if it was misunderstanding, but it's not because they're portrayed to all be dull, violent, simpletons. So it makes the racist Humans seem like they're in the right.

I don't think Tolkiens original orcs were a black stereotype though, I believe they were meant to be a Jewish Stereotype. Harry Potter does this too with it's banker slave elves.

 

[Frostlich1228 (Alt)]

DnD has a big problem with reducing entire ethic groups to one single giant personality type and it's all really annoying.

Thankfully they're getting better, though slowly.

 

[Dahlexpert]

DnD has a big problem with reducing entire ethic groups to one single giant personality type and it's all really annoying.

Thankfully they're getting better, though slowly.

I’m gonna make very happy with what I have in stored for orc with my RP.

 

[ShadowHounder]

DnD has a big problem with reducing entire ethic groups to one single giant personality type and it's all really annoying.

Thankfully they're getting better, though slowly.

To be fair... 99% of story telling is up to the player... most rulebooks are meant to guidelines, not concrete definitions.

 

[Frostlich1228 (Alt)]

To be fair... 99% of story telling is up to the player... most rulebooks are meant to guidelines, not concrete definitions.

Well fix the guidelines then.

 

[DarkGemini24601]

Well fix the guidelines then.

See, I don't think the guidelines need to be fixed. There's nothing inherently wrong with a species that's just evil by default. Fantasy is fantasy, not the real world. Having generally evil races is about having monsters for the party to fight without feeling remorseful. They're stock bad guys. It's not complex, but not everything needs to be - especially for a recreational activity like DnD.

 

[Black0ut]

DnD has a big problem with reducing entire ethic groups to one single giant personality type and it's all really annoying.

Thankfully they're getting better, though slowly.

*coughs (The Gith Elves) *coughs*

 

[ShadowHounder]

Well fix the guidelines then.

why fix the guidelines when you can just build upon them? That's what the Warcraft team and Tolkien did. Before LotR, Elves were evil trickster from folk lore

 

[Marine]

Well fix the guidelines then.

Don't fix what isnt broken. Btw in LotRs Orcs are man-eating monsters who would reduce the world to ash and enslave everyone they could.

You got to remember orcs are massive more powerful than a human, which is why in WoW humans are scared of them, especially when the orcs keep being fucking ruled by evil players. Thrall is a pussy who ran away when his people needed him and he did Saurfang dirty.

But yeah, Gem is right. Comparing fantasy races to any shade of human is a stretch so far, that you'd slap yourself on the back of the head from wrapping around the world.

Also DnD orcs are trash and I wouldnt even oppress them. They are too beneath my aasiman gaze to notice. And if Im a Tiefling I would exploit their innate rage to my advantage. Like Dahl. So easy to get a rise out of.

#OrcBrainsSmol #GreenManBad

 

[Dahlexpert]

Don't fix what isnt broken. Btw in LotRs Orcs are man-eating monsters who would reduce the world to ash and enslave everyone they could.

You got to remember orcs are massive more powerful than a human, which is why in WoW humans are scared of them, especially when the orcs keep being fucking ruled by evil players. Thrall is a pussy who ran away when his people needed him and he did Saurfang dirty.

But yeah, Gem is right. Comparing fantasy races to any shade of human is a stretch so far, that you'd slap yourself on the back of the head from wrapping around the world.

Also DnD orcs are trash and I wouldnt even oppress them. They are too beneath my aasiman gaze to notice. And if Im a Tiefling I would exploit their innate rage to my advantage. Like Dahl. So easy to get a rise out of.

#OrcBrainsSmol #GreenManBad

I would rip your face off Tiefling.

 

[Marine]

I would rip your face off Tiefling.

How dare you perpetuate the stereotype that orcs are violent! Wait... it's apart of your racial...? How dare you not be a good ally. Haven't you heard that you perpetuating stereotypes is very problematic and leads to violence against Orc youth in low income orc areas? What? The orcs are fighting amongst themselves for no reason? Must be the Tieflings!

 

[ShadowHounder]

How dare you perpetuate the stereotype that orcs are violent! Wait... it's apart of your racial...? How dare you not be a good ally. Haven't you heard that you perpetuating stereotypes is very problematic and leads to violence against Orc youth in low income orc areas? What? The orcs are fighting amongst themselves for no reason? Must be the Tieflings!

Cute coming from the demon halfbreed

 

[Dahlexpert]

How dare you perpetuate the stereotype that orcs are violent! Wait... it's apart of your racial...? How dare you not be a good ally. Haven't you heard that you perpetuating stereotypes is very problematic and leads to violence against Orc youth in low income orc areas? What? The orcs are fighting amongst themselves for no reason? Must be the Tieflings!

The orcs from warhammer 40k will like to know we’re you are, because. (Coughs) Wez looking for a good scrap an wez hrd Ous beg words and that makes me angry! (Miss spelling intended)

 

[Frostlich1228 (Alt)]

See, I don't think the guidelines need to be fixed. There's nothing inherently wrong with a species that's just evil by default. Fantasy is fantasy, not the real world. Having generally evil races is about having monsters for the party to fight without feeling remorseful. They're stock bad guys. It's not complex, but not everything needs to be - especially for a recreational activity like DnD.

Yes. Let's just play out the same tired Villian archetype of "Me Orc. Me Green. Human Bad. Kill Humans! Rarggh!"

Truly this is compelling storytelling. Using the LotR Orcs as an example, Shadow of Mordor actually made you care about them by making them interesting and giving them an actual character that's not "Me Orc. Me Smash."

There are smart orc, Funny Orcs, Honorable Orcs, Downtrodden Orcs, Orcs who play music, Orcs who have strange a bee fascination.

Sure, if you want to run forgettable Orc fight number 5492, then I can't stop you, or, you can make them actually memorable and interesting. If Villians aren't memorable or interesting, then they aren't good Villians. Orcs almost never slot into that spot, they are all the forgettable meatshield jobbers that only exist in the world to wear you down slightly before the actual fight.

No. They don't have to be well defined, memorable, and interesting, but they should, or you're doing them anywhere near the justice that they deserve as a race.

 

[Frostlich1228 (Alt)]

Antagonists are supposed to be the driving force of your Protagonists Growth, even the minions should help facilitate that in some way, otherwise, why ever have them, they are filler. And I don't know about you but I hate filler content, enemies that exist just to die and then more Enemies show up who exist to die. I'm not saying your nameless Orc needs to have a completely written sad backstory, but at least give him a motivation for fighting more complex than "I just started blasting"