X-COM THINK TANK (Out of Character Discussion about X-COM and the Series)

[Rocketbottle]

This isn't a fight against our own species though, it's understandable why people would not want to watch one human kill another, but aliens, coming to OUR planet, abducting OUR people? If anyone, I'd love to watch soldiers defeat aliens in live combat. It would bring hope seeing a soldier kill those damn, repulsive beings.

I get what you are saying but if there is a terror mission, a mission where squad gets massacred, or even a death of a solider it would be hard to watch.

 

[too_spooked]

I get what you are saying but if there is a terror mission, a mission where squad gets massacred, or even a death of a solider it would be hard to watch.

That's why they would have it on a delay, to censor out any particularly gruesome incidents to the soldiers.

 

[Discopanda]

Propaganda is a thing that exists, guys.

 

[Sarge-Pepper]

I understand that, but i don't think showing soldiers tape from a previous encounter would bring positive morale. I could see posters and the like, but not footage from the fight. Word of mouth spreads quicker than offical propaganda, and the people lost or wounded would bring truth to light if command tried to spin it at all. It's different if there were other bases and the reports were coming from there, but the people that survived would tell their story, or the lack of the soldiers returning would be questioned heavily, having the opposite effect on morale.

I think it'd be a terrible idea as a commander, and even worse for morale.

 

[Taugaunt]

I understand that, but i don't think showing soldiers tape from a previous encounter would bring positive morale. I could see posters and the like, but not footage from the fight. Word of mouth spreads quicker than offical propaganda, and the people lost or wounded would bring truth to light if command tried to spin it at all. It's different if there were other bases and the reports were coming from there, but the people that survived would tell their story, or the lack of the soldiers returning would be questioned heavily, having the opposite effect on morale.

I think it'd be a terrible idea as a commander, and even worse for morale.

I am going to have to agree with this. It makes more sense that the soldiers or the staff who would be watching it live (Commander Odd, Vahlen, Shen, Bradford and anybody else directly in the tactical command) would be the ones to inform the rest of the staff after the mission was over. As much as I belive that being able to watch it live or even on a delay would make some interesting story moments, it dosent make much sense from a "its for bosting moral" stand point.

 

[Dragonivon]

I understand that, but i don't think showing soldiers tape from a previous encounter would bring positive morale. I could see posters and the like, but not footage from the fight. Word of mouth spreads quicker than offical propaganda, and the people lost or wounded would bring truth to light if command tried to spin it at all. It's different if there were other bases and the reports were coming from there, but the people that survived would tell their story, or the lack of the soldiers returning would be questioned heavily, having the opposite effect on morale.

I think it'd be a terrible idea as a commander, and even worse for morale.

I disagree, I think there are situations where such footage could prove beneficial.

The flipside is using such videos for training purposes, especially for the new recruits. The first few missions usually are met with lots of panicking because it's the first time that soldier is running up against the alien. If they had some idea of what they were up against, how they moved in past encounters, and watch successful counters to those aliens it would prove beneficial. Much in the same light as watching previous football games to help your team prepare for the next game. Except in XCOM's case they would edit out the gruesome head-exploding of soldiers or other awful mishaps. Though probably leave in footage of foolish soldiers running through poison clouds as an example of what NOT to do.

This is part of my theory about how Rookies get advanced to Squaddies (magically through officer training) is simple: you remember those live hostages we keep taking? Oh, they aren't dead. They are just shackled and given paintball guns and put into training ranges for the Rookies to try to annihilate. So they get the 'first contact' experience without the threat of death, thus bringing to light the abilities of those Rookies even faster. Just a thought, but would make large amounts of sense. Dr. Vahlen would get more test data if those captured were 'stress tested' constantly after capture.

Just food for thought.

 

[Taugaunt]

I disagree, I think there are situations where such footage could prove beneficial.

The flipside is using such videos for training purposes, especially for the new recruits. The first few missions usually are met with lots of panicking because it's the first time that soldier is running up against the alien. If they had some idea of what they were up against, how they moved in past encounters, and watch successful counters to those aliens it would prove beneficial. Much in the same light as watching previous football games to help your team prepare for the next game. Except in XCOM's case they would edit out the gruesome head-exploding of soldiers or other awful mishaps. Though probably leave in footage of foolish soldiers running through poison clouds as an example of what NOT to do.

This is part of my theory about how Rookies get advanced to Squaddies (magically through officer training) is simple: you remember those live hostages we keep taking? Oh, they aren't dead. They are just shackled and given paintball guns and put into training ranges for the Rookies to try to annihilate. So they get the 'first contact' experience without the threat of death, thus bringing to light the abilities of those Rookies even faster. Just a thought, but would make large amounts of sense. Dr. Vahlen would get more test data if those captured were 'stress tested' constantly after capture.

Just food for thought.

For training purposes I would agree with you 100%, but we were talking about it as if they would be watching it live as a form of entertainment witch I don't believe would be done in a military like organization.

Also the prisoner shooting gallery might be a bit inhumane. Then again there not humans, but I think there might still be some moral problems with that.

 

[Sarge-Pepper]

I agree with training, but not for morale or entertainment purposes. Thats what i was arguing against. And I somehow doubt, with Dr. Vahlen aware of how dangerous they are and how little they know about the species, that she would release any with Rookies around, simply for safeties sake.

Though i could see a very interesting post about someone who thought it was a good idea and did it without her knowing.

 

[Sarge-Pepper]

For training purposes I would agree with you 100%, but we were talking about it as if they would be watching it live as a form of entertainment witch I don't believe would be done in a military like organization.

Also the prisoner shooting gallery might be a bit inhumane. Then again there not humans, but I think there might still be some moral problems with that.

Absolutely. There would be plenty of people who thought it would be a great idea, and those who were blatantly against it. Plenty of tension on that subject.

 

[Dragonivon]

Also the prisoner shooting gallery might be a bit inhumane. Then again there not humans, but I think there might still be some moral problems with that.

Well, I admit I'm trying to get into the mindset of a Triad enforcer with aspirations of taking over once the dust has settled, so what you might consider inhumane he simply considers moderately ruthless but with great potential for success. And let's face it, we have a german scientist working tirelessly to euthanize an entire species through scientific advancement and superior firepower. And we know how kind and humane such a situation worked out in humanity's past, don't we?

We will see what happens, I'm just waiting in the wings trying to figure out how to play Zhang when I get the chance and enjoying everyone's stories in the meantime. I am curious who ended up building the XCOM facility in Asia, for such a big job it would be a little difficult to keep too secret from those who watch where manpower and supplies go as a matter of course.

 

[Sarge-Pepper]

Well, I admit I'm trying to get into the mindset of a Triad enforcer with aspirations of taking over once the dust has settled, so what you might consider inhumane he simply considers moderately ruthless but with great potential for success. And let's face it, we have a german scientist working tirelessly to euthanize an entire species through scientific advancement and superior firepower. And we know how kind and humane such a situation worked out in humanity's past, don't we?

We will see what happens, I'm just waiting in the wings trying to figure out how to play Zhang when I get the chance and enjoying everyone's stories in the meantime. I am curious who ended up building the XCOM facility in Asia, for such a big job it would be a little difficult to keep too secret from those who watch where manpower and supplies go as a matter of course.

Thats actually fantastically in character, and I'm excited to see how you play him. But I'm pretty sure it's gonna be about 50-50 as far as moral stuff goes here. But that's merely a background story to the whole shebang of the game.

 

[JuliaMaluca]

Man, Dragonivon, you are getting scary. When does the movie based on your Zhang come out?

I like the idea of post-encounter briefings for the troops with moving pictures. We know how humans move, but imagine the shock when you see your first chryssalid jump 20 feet onto the roof you felt safe on! The material will be edited, of course, no soldier deaths visible, but as long as there is no chance of learning by doing, learning by watching is the next best thing. I disagree with the "watch stupid things done by your comrades" idea, though. You watched one guy do something stupid on video, he's a) embarrassed in front of his comrades for life and b) no one will be able to trust him any more, since that moment will stick in your memory.

 

[Dragonivon]

Man, Dragonivon, you are getting scary. When does the movie based on your Zhang come out?

I like the idea of post-encounter briefings for the troops with moving pictures. We know how humans move, but imagine the shock when you see your first chryssalid jump 20 feet onto the roof you felt safe on! The material will be edited, of course, no soldier deaths visible, but as long as there is no chance of learning by doing, learning by watching is the next best thing. I disagree with the "watch stupid things done by your comrades" idea, though. You watched one guy do something stupid on video, he's a) embarrassed in front of his comrades for life and b) no one will be able to trust him any more, since that moment will stick in your memory.

I'd start with Ichi the Killer, read 'Sanctuary' by Sho Fumimura, and then perhaps watch Triad Election or perhaps the original Oldboy. Though I admit, my mental image of Zhang would make for a very interesting (if bordering on Tokyo gore police) movie.

As for showing some mistakes, you seriously underestimate the type of positive and negative conditioning even your most basic Marine drill Sergeant inflicts on the troops he's training. There's a reason that they will point out the fuckups in a squad with particular zeal. To make sure the fuckup doesn't happen again being the primary reason. The secondary reason is to illustrate in no uncertain terms what happens if you don't remember your training on the battlefield. If you think a Marine drill Sergeant is the slightest bit concerned about embarrassing someone in front of his comrades, especially when training them specifically for war, then you need to reread some history.

Your point about 'as long as there is no chance of learning by doing' is exactly why Zhang would be an advocate for using alien prisoners in live-fire exercises. Or at least live-rubberbullet exercises, that way you could reuse the prisoners after Vahlen gets a chance to see how they heal from various traumas. Heck, in the case of standard Sectoids he would advocate putting them in a fighting octagon and letting soldiers beat the hell out of them with fists and feet. Since standard sectoids are almost pathetically weak there would be very little actual risk AND it would drive home the point that they can be beaten. Remember the scene with Annette being so shocked that the aliens could be killed at all during 'Deluge'? To the population in general, the aliens are unstoppable killing machines. The first step for a military is to make their soldiers feel like they CAN win the fight against the enemy.

Again, the tactics that Zhang would consider 'reasonable' probably has nothing to do with what CommanderOdd would consider reasonable. And I already see that as one point of character conflict to work on in the journals ahead. Mostly revolving around Zhang having very specific ideas of what it takes to win, borne of a lifetime of experience surviving the worst the Chinese underworld has to throw at him, and it's certainly not pretty and utterly ruthless. But he's the one still standing, scars and all.

 

[JuliaMaluca]

I'd start with Ichi the Killer, read 'Sanctuary' by Sho Fumimura, and then perhaps watch Triad Election or perhaps the original Oldboy. Though I admit, my mental image of Zhang would make for a very interesting (if bordering on Tokyo gore police) movie.

I'd *love* to watch that movie. And maybe later hang a poster of Zhang in my living room

As for showing some mistakes, you seriously underestimate the type of positive and negative conditioning even your most basic Marine drill Sergeant inflicts on the troops he's training. There's a reason that they will point out the fuckups in a squad with particular zeal. To make sure the fuckup doesn't happen again being the primary reason. The secondary reason is to illustrate in no uncertain terms what happens if you don't remember your training on the battlefield. If you think a Marine drill Sergeant is the slightest bit concerned about embarrassing someone in front of his comrades, especially when training them specifically for war, then you need to reread some history.

Point taken.

Your point about 'as long as there is no chance of learning by doing' is exactly why Zhang would be an advocate for using alien prisoners in live-fire exercises. Or at least live-rubberbullet exercises, that way you could reuse the prisoners after Vahlen gets a chance to see how they heal from various traumas. Heck, in the case of standard Sectoids he would advocate putting them in a fighting octagon and letting soldiers beat the hell out of them with fists and feet. Since standard sectoids are almost pathetically weak there would be very little actual risk AND it would drive home the point that they can be beaten. Remember the scene with Annette being so shocked that the aliens could be killed at all during 'Deluge'? To the population in general, the aliens are unstoppable killing machines. The first step for a military is to make their soldiers feel like they CAN win the fight against the enemy.

Again, the tactics that Zhang would consider 'reasonable' probably has nothing to do with what CommanderOdd would consider reasonable. And I already see that as one point of character conflict to work on in the journals ahead. Mostly revolving around Zhang having very specific ideas of what it takes to win, borne of a lifetime of experience surviving the worst the Chinese underworld has to throw at him, and it's certainly not pretty and utterly ruthless. But he's the one still standing, scars and all.

As long as we don't know what the aliens can do, there's no way we bring them back alive and play around with them. Later... hm. I wonder if the stunned captives reach their destination as hurt as they leave the battefield - or a bit *more* hurt. After all, the flight takes some time.

 

[Dragonivon]

As long as we don't know what the aliens can do, there's no way we bring them back alive and play around with them. Later... hm. I wonder if the stunned captives reach their destination as hurt as they leave the battefield - or a bit *more* hurt. After all, the flight takes some time.

The only thing I can say regarding that within the parameters of the game is look at the total number of corpses available for sale on the Grey Market. Interestingly enough the total will include the aliens killed AND the aliens captured in the tally. So assuming CommanderOdd sells off all the sectoid corpses (as sometimes he's very wont to do), should we assume that he simply shoots the 'live' one in the head for easier transport? Well, that seems a waste. If you are going to kill it anyway, why not do it in an environment where you can learn from it? Since the game makes no marked difference between live aliens and dead ones for terms of sale, one may presume that any aliens captured alive are either 1) killed soon afterwards in the course of scientific testing, knowing Dr Vahlen you can presume they die screaming. Or 2) considered completely expendable depending on the whims of the Commander and if he feels he needs five XCOM dollars.

Either outcome distinctly implies that treating the aliens 'humanely' is not an issue.

I actually remember a mission where I encountered and captured my first Ethereal. What's more it gave me the option to Interrogate Ethereal, which I did. Immediately afterwards I was able to do Ethereal autopsy. Which leads me to believe that Dr. Vahlen's interrogations tend to be fatal. So pretty much any alien captives are completely and utterly screwed from the beginning, it's just a question of what actually ends up killing them in the interim.

As for knowing what the aliens can do, we already sent soldiers to capture the alien in the first place with a glorified stungun and usually after carefully shooting the alien a few times in presumably nonlethal spots just to make the stungun work better while in a real combat situation. It's pretty clear they have a decent bead on what the aliens can do by that point. If soldiers can do THAT then I think they can devise some military exercises using live captives that are decidedly less risky than THAT initial scenario pretty easily. And yes, my vision of Zhang will probably would be tried for multiple war crimes if he had his way... if the enemy were humans anyway.

 

[Grelite]

I had assumed the aliens die during or some time after the interrogation simply because they don't have the means to keep them alive - lacking the knowledge on feeding and maintenance of the alien in question. Not to mention the extensive neural probing used to extract images from the captured aliens' minds as described by Vahlen after the first interrogation done by the player in the game.

 

[Psilon]

The impression I got was that interrogation itself is the cause of death of the ones interrogated. After that however, as Dragonvion pointed out, aliens that are captured seem to join the corpses rather quickly, suggesting that XCom doesn't even bother trying to keep them alive. I always imagined them just being executed before they recover from the stun. And for the most part I wouldn't let rookies near captive mutons, floaters or even thin men. Dazed as they may be a Muton can probably casually break a human in half, a floater can probably body slam someone boneless and thin men, for all their apparent frailty, can use the heavier than human light plasma rifle in one hand. Psionic aliens are obviously out of the question as well, with sectoids being the only viable form of safe target practice.

 

[Thenlar]

Marines have Drill Instructors. The Army uses Drill Sergeants. Sorry, it's a point of pride/contention and I have seen a recruit make the mistake to a DI's face. It's not pretty (much like a recruit going for the ice cream machine in the chow hall).

After Action Reports and combat critique are important, especially in a pioneering organization like xcom. You have to learn from both your mistakes and others' without rancor, if you want to survive against this superior foe. Superiors conducting a battle review will almost certainly not seek to embarrass, just teach. Now, your peers, on the other hand, will more than likely razz the shit out of you for bone headed mistakes... assuming no one got killed because of it.

 

[Frozen Messiah]

So what is the status on who is rooming with who? I know that there was some conversation about what the exact nature of how rank effects the bunking status but has there been an actual list of names of names made up to figure out who is in those rooms?

 

[Thenlar]

Conversation, yes, but no consensus.